Basejumper.com - archive

I wanted to break this part of the BASE article referenced in 813s thread out for a little more discussion, because I think it's a fascinating theory...


This is almost exactly the way I describe how I feel after a BASE jump to whuffos... that it's one of the few times when I actually feel "normal".

Like about every other jumper, for me the most intense time fear-wise are those brief moments when I actually step up to the edge and make the decision to push off. After that, I have a very eerie sense of calmness.

After I land, I may be a little shaky for about a minute or so, but that gives way to a feeling of total relaxation... total contentment... that I can't descibe.

There have been several drives home where me and my friends may utter 10 words total in the course of a half hour... we're all just sort of veging out... and I always sleep far better on jump nights than other nights.

There was a great documentary on TLC a while back called "Understanding Thrill Seekers & Risk Takers" which explored the dopamine theory. I tend to agree with it.

It also explains why I believe a very large majority of skydivers & BASE jumpers probably have ADHD (as I do).

People with ADHD are believed to suffer from insufficient dopamine levels in the brain. These lower levels result in the hyperactivity and impulsivity which are hallmarks of the condition. Stimulants, such as Adderall, Ritalin and caffeine stimulate dopamine production and thus, paradoxically calm the ADHD person down.

I take Adderall and drink massive amounts of caffeine during the day. It's rather humorous because I've given some to non-ADHD friends and they're literally bouncing off the walls. Like when I jump, these make me feel "normal".

ADHD folks also have a penchant for engaging in high risk/intensity activities. My take is this a form of self-medication. The activity is different, but the biochemical result is the same... we're replacing depleted dopamine levels in order to feel "normal" or "calm".

Not that this is a bad thing. I just believe that all of these things are interrelated and can trace back to a common neurochemical condition.

this is not the first time I have heard this.............................

What was the middle one again? Oh yeah. Two sugars mother. I'm coming down from the roof. Is the tv on? Where's my coat, the bank shuts at noon.


Have you considered the possibility that you may indeed be stark staring bonkers?

quite often actually.... i still get the 'contentment' feeling from skydiving, my coffee/caffeine etc.. intake goes down (which is very good for organs other than the brain) signigicantly when i've been jumping...

would you say BASE 'ups' the dosage? perhaps i'd be able to leave off caffeine completely? BASE for health reasons?

"yes officer, i have my doctor's prescription right here...."

Maybe I just have a really bad case of it (I'm sure others here can attest to that given their interactions with me lol), but no. I sleep really well, but I still need my Adderall and 4 20oz bottles of Diet Mt. Dew the next day just to stay halfway alert at work.

And what blows people's minds is that after all that.. I'm really very sedate.

"I don't have ADHD, what are you talki- OH LOOK A CHICKEN!!!!!"

I've had mild symptoms of ADHD for years. Why mild? Because I'm also hypothyroid, and it's a condition that tends to slow one down quite a bit. (i.e., I'm not a whirlwind, but if I settle down for the night to read a book, I'm up and down every five minutes doing some other little task.)

I was first diagnosed with hypothyroidism in 1972, but my short attention span interfered with meds-compliance, and after several moves and a comparable number of doctors, the diagnosis got lost in the cracks. I muddled along until 1994-5, when I was misdiagnosed with MS. Three things happened then. I demanded a thyroid panel, I quit smoking cigarettes, and I started skydiving.

For the first couple of years after that, even though I was taking about half the amount of replacement hormone I needed (overcautious general practitioners) and even though I was so weak, I could barely lift my head off the ground when lying supine, I felt terrific, especially after a jump.

In 1998-99, the too-low dose of medication took it's toll. I felt horrible, and I started smoking again. I saw an endo for the first time. She nearly doubled the thyroid meds, and she prescribed Zoloft for hypothyroid-induced depression until the increased thyroid meds started working. Zoloft didn't do much for me--it's an SSRI and too-little serotonin is not my problem. So when I mentioned a desire to quit smoking, she switched me to bupropion, aka Wellbutrin or Zyban.

Bupropion is a dopamine-serotonin-norepinepherine reuptake inhibitor, but its primary effect is on dopamine.

Oddly enough, not long after I started taking Wellbutrin, I lost interest in jumping.

I no longer take Wellbutrin, and as long as my thyroid meds are adequate, I don't need it (well, maybe I do, because I'm still smoking). But when I need to increase the dosage of thyroid meds, three things happen: I experience a wide range of physical symptoms--including a complete loss of the ability to pay attenton--I smoke more, and I really, really want to jump.

I know one old-time BASE jumper who began taking Effexor (a serotonin-norepinepherine reuptake inhibitor), and although I'm not sure he noticed the connection, it was clear that as the meds started to work, he jumped less and less. He was a smoker, also, but I don't remember if his nicotine consumption decreased.

There's a clear connection between nicotine and norepinepherine, as well as between norepinepherine and blood sugar levels. The effect of caffeine is similar to nicotine, though not as pronounced.

There is also a connection between severe emotional trauma and a chronic deficit of all the neurotransmitters.

Here's a link to some interesting links about dopamine (included because this post has gotten way too long):

Dopamine

During the times I've taken certain supplemental amino acids (see the link), most of the lingering symptoms disappear. I still take tyrosine, but choline and phenylalanine enhance the effect, and NADH is pure gold.

rl

And what do you drink during the night after a jump?

American piss beer i guess poor guy...

Outstanding!
Do you know how I get in touch with the Seattle chapter of the National Association of Discount Hookers?

Thanks in advance,
-Josh

your a BASEjumper,your top of the food chain you shouldnt pay for sex

...Adderall, Ritalin and ...Zoloft ...Wellbutrin or Zyban...Bupropion is a dopamine-serotonin-norepinepherine reuptake inhibitor, but its primary effect is on dopamine.... Effexor (a serotonin-norepinepherine reuptake inhibitor...norepinepherine
Phew! An American friend told me that you guys got a pill for every minute of the day. She wasn't joking, was she?

This is what works for me, in it's entirety:
Feeling Down??
-Go for a BASE jump! (skydives will work too, just multiply by ten)
-smoke cigarette on way to pub
-drink beer in pub until you feel quite dizzy
-smoke more cigarettes while drinking beer
-go home to loved one and eat roast dinner
-go to bed with loved one.
Now feeling on top of the world and ready to cope with anything.

Sorted!

<shrug>The explanation for why your "cure" works is both as simple and as complicated as the explanation for the drugs I named.

A drug is a drug is a drug. (Go for it, Wickedness. I'm ready for ya. )

It doesn't matter if your drug of choice comes from your food, your pub, your mushroom gathering foray into the forest or your pharmacist. Me, I use a lot of herbs in lieu of Western pharmaceuticals, but I don't believe they're particularly better, just different.

We each have our own way of overcoming our congenital anomalies. Whatever works. And if what works is tower climbing in subzero weather, may the universe smile upon your fortitude.

rl

I doubt very seriously that neurotransmitter deficiencies are the fundamental phenomena in the encouragement of risk behaviors. I say this principally because there exist many neurobiological theories of risk which are, unfortunately, explicitly contradictory. Recall if you will a countertheory antithetical to your dopamine deficiency hypothesis presented in "Adrenaline Rush: The Science of Risk"; here, risk takers were conjectured to have lower levels of monoamine oxidase (MAO) - an enzymatic degrader of synaptic neurotransmitters. Of course, this implies by extension the relative excess of serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine in the risk-taker's brain.

In short:
The imax movie's citation --> Better moods lead to risk-taking
Your theory citation --> Worse moods lead to risk-taking

Confirmation bias, maybe?

In my opinion, the etiology of risk behavior must be evaluated individually and, most definitely, has a definitively experential component. Of course, while this could in turn effect neurotransmitter balance, brain chemistry does not act independently to ellicit risk-taking. While one person might jump to feel normal, another might jump to complement their already-existing satisfaction.

What do you think?

One way or another, you always pay for it.
-Josh

Not at all:

"Once the brain's three neurotransmitters, known as monoamines (serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine), have played their part in sending messages in the brain, they get burned up by a protein in the brain called monoamine oxidase, a liver and brain enzyme."

"Antidepressants known as monoamine oxidase inhibitors work by blocking this cleanup activity. When the excess neurotransmitters don't get destroyed, they start piling up in the brain. And since depression is associated with low levels of these monoamines, it's not surprising that increasing the monoamines ease depressive symptoms."

Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitors

And Parkinson's Disease results from the deficiency of dopamine:

Monoamine Oxidase Type B Inhibitors May Help in Early Parkinson's Disease

rl

funny thing i feel it the other way arround theese days
my gf is goodlooking(well for a 35 year old anyway) she gives great sex,she phone crew me as much as she can,she let me use her car for BASE and i get free beer..

Now i wonder if you found your girls the wrong places
EDIT not to forget she clean my clothes and makes me food...

oh i love that girl

That's the same thing I said...

There's an inverse correlation between MAO and neurotransmitter. If the enzyme which breaks down neurotransmitter is not there in normal quantities, there will be a RELATIVE excess of neurotransmitter present in the neural synapses. Relative, in this instance, refers to a comparison between the brain with decreased MAO and the model of the normal (baseline, if you will) brain.

"Adrenaline Rush"'s explanation of naturally decreased MAO is effectually identical to that which is achieved when taking monoamine oxidase inhibitors; mood is elevated.

This, of course, is the exact opposite of saying that dopamine DEFICIENCY encourages risk-taking. In the dopamine deficiency hypothesis, pleasure-inducing neurotransmitter levels are relatively low. In Adrenaline Rush's hypothesis (as when taking MAOIs, like you said correctly), these levels are relatively high.

You're right. I read it...um...backwards and sort of inverted. Because I don't get it.

The theory seems a little off-kilter on its face. If risk takers have lower levels of MAO at the outset, then why would they need to engage in risky behavior to increase the amount of neurotransmitters already present in greater than normal quantities?

This is the first time I've ever heard of MAO deficiency, but for now, at least, I'm not buying it. The whole idea fails to comport the harsh reality that there is a high incidence of severe clinical depression in parachute jumpers--particularly BASE jumpers--when they are not actively jumping.

Either that, or I'm just very depressing to everyone I know.

rl

Edited to add:

http://www.futuredynamicadvantage.com/research/maobrain.html
http://www.ithyroid.com/mao_and_maoi.htm

There is truth in both statements.

This conversation reminds me of a book published in the 1970s. The title was "Positive Addictions."
The theme of the book was that people with addictive type personalities should do sports instead of drugs. For example, he recommended jogging to get a "runner's high."
At AA meetings, I learned that a lot of drug (alcohol, caffeine, heroin, etc.) addicts are self-medicating in an effort to feel "normal."
As the original poster suggested, addictive type personalities may originate in chemical imbalances in the brain.
Whether those chemical imbalances originate at birth, from psychological or physical trauma does not matter, we (addictive types) still need some form of stimulation to "get our juices flowing" to the point that we feel normal.
Just ask my girlfriend, if clouds prevent me from jumping for two or three weeks, I get depressed, listless, argumentative, etc.
The bottom line is - if you have an addictive type personality - you are better off doing BASE jumps than doing drugs.

I really wanted to stay away from this post but...

Guys let's not confuse real science supported with empirical data with urban myths and reader's digest articles.

First, as in today there is no a single decent theory supported by empirical data about risky behavior.

Second, there are a lot of jumpers who are not gamblers hence the risky behavior theory that likes to use gambling as a model does not apply. We for the most part try to leave very little to chance. A gambler leaves everything to chance.

Third, there are many, many jumpers who are not addicted or have ever been to anything.

Fourth, let us not confused clinical depression with the depression pharmaceutical industries are pushing to sell drugs. Heave you head of adult ADD? Do you really think it's a real mental disorder? Think twice. Who does not get bumped if you can't do what you like doing? This is not depression is a normal conditioned response. Now if it's a gorgeous day with 2mph winds, 80 degrees, and you don't want to get out of your bed to go skydiving and you are physically OK then there is something else going on. Getting mildly depressed because you are not able to do what you like is perfectly normal; no need to drop the pill.

Fifth the neurotransmitter/MAO theory and risky behavior has no foundation whatsoever nor any empirical data.

Sixth, I would love to know the reason why we love to skydive and BASE but I cannot find the common denominator and no, it's not just the high we get from them. I've met a lot of skydivers and BASE jumpers and it seems to me their personalities come in all sizes and shapes.

Seven and final point, any behavior is a very complex phenomenon that can't be explained just by looking at one or few variables