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Just thinking about geting my first base rig and alredy fly a wingsuit so thought of getting the gargoyle from morpheus, I'm just about settled on this as a container but am unsure about the canopy. they do a package with the troll canopy but i'm after some advice on it's performance. I'll be learning in norway and then moving from the UK to Aus so how does the troll measure up to the low altitude jumps in AUS?
Cheers guys
Darren

I hope your profile is out of date. 41 jumps seems a little early to be flying wingsuits or BASE jumping.

I'm assuming that's 41 BASE jumps. There are plenty of people on here who put the number of BASE jumps in the "jumps" category. Check out Slim's Profile, for example, and you'll see he hasn't included any of his skydives in his total jump numbers.

My personal preference would be to go with a Blackjack with the ZP foreskin.

However, you'll find that if you are going to be doing low stuff in Oz, you'll get a lot more help from locals if you're jumping a Flik, because they mostly have BR gear down under.

The MDV Troll is also a good canopy choice. Be sure to get the MDV's though, as an unvented Troll is going to be a very poor choice for Australian jumping.

If wingsuits are your thing, consider getting the WS Xtreme Gargoyle, as it converts to operate in the "standard" configuration, for non-wingsuit jumps. Be aware, though, that the last I heard, you couldn't get a WS sized for a canopy larger than 240, so that may not be the best choice for Aussie BASE unless you are very light.

I'm in the same boat as you. I will do mainly wing jumps from big walls when in Europe. Low cliffs are not for me. Some antennas and bridges here and there.

I went for an ACE with the composite top skin. I will not take advantage of a vented canopy and being 90% of my deployments at terminal wing-suit velocities I think a canopy like the ACE is perfect. I ordered mine with the fine mesh slider too. Openings thus far have been great.

If you want to do both, low cliff and wing-suit maybe a vented like a Black Jack is your best buy unless you got cash to spare to get both

A black jack or any other vented canopy will give you much harder openings at terminal even with a fine mesh, keep that in mind.

The MERLIN looks like a pretty tremendous w/s container as well. You might ask a big wingsuiter like 416 what they think you should get started with.

Well, as a fairly new rig owner........
I have a Gargoyle (regular) and a Troll 290 MDV. The construction of the container is great!! Well built, well designed and it looks awesome.
As for the canopy, only done 3 jumps on it but I am happy so far for sure. Great flare and again the constuction looks totally solid. It is a 290 and I am 240 pounds. It landed great at 3600 feet ASL.

Just read the posts and also in the market for a new container. My sf.3 should be in soon and was wondering about the performance of WS specific rigs like the merlin or WS extreme for non-wing suit base jumps and low stuff. I've seen a lot of perigee pro's around lately and just looking for some info from those using them, thanks

edit: site naming ~TA

Sorry, actually looking for info about the WS specific rigs, and the pro's and con's to the different pin rigs out there, thanks

I asked about the WSXtreme a little while ago and Base733 was kind enough to give a couple of responses in the following thread...

http://www.dropzone.com/...i?post=906142#906142

you're a sick bastard Tom.

I've seen some wicked body modifications in the past--but this takes the cake. Did it take awhile to heal?

mh

I still love my good old and proven FOX canopies! Just my 2 cents.

Some more info about the WS Xtreme that I've just gotten from Morpheus:

• ws x-treme can be manufactured for up to a Troll or BR canopy 265 or 266, and a CR/Asylum canopy up to a 280.

• It can also be purchased with 3-rings if a person so chooses and in Cordura for people who will be doing multiple types of jumps with it.

I'm considering a Flik Vtec 265 (I weigh 150 to 165, depending on time of year). Money is a factor. I want a H/C for our lo(w)cal stuff, but would like to travel to do some WS BASE in the future. I'd rather just buy a second H/C that fits my canopy than buy a second canopy. Is this canopy not appropriate for wingsuit flights? Even with a small mesh slider? It sounds like this may be the case if this canopy is pushing the size limit of the container... and I'm a pretty average build.

with the troll being measured differently so thus a 265 is more like a 280 then how does this work? Why would a troll 265 (re 280) fit and a BR280ish not? but a CR/AD 280 will?

just interested in how these different canopy measurements work out when quoting these sorts of figures.

I have also been interested in the WS Extreme... At this point the only thing that makes me wary of having this as my only rig is that the bottom of the container goes significantly past the harness attachment. I would think that on aerial jumps in particular, this would provide a convenient place for the bridle to get hung up. Not sure if this is a major factor, since I haven't done aerials yet, but I'd like to hear from anyone who has.

Also, I talked to Robert and he mentioned that he could move the laterals down so that they met at the corner of the container. However, it looks like this would cause the rig to fit my Crossbow poorly.

Alas, I'm having a hard time finding a pin rig that I'd really like to buy. The Gargoyle is close, but I'm not too keen on how they've contoured the fabric in the top corners (the rounded end of the side panels give it a bit of a box shape, whereas other manufacturers have tapered the side panels down to smooth the corner).

Michael

Just fyi- I've done singles, doubles and triple gainers and fronts with the WS Extreme and have not had any problems.

My best advice would be to get the 266 for your first jumps, and put it in a Soft Cock for the local stuff.

Then, get a WS Xtreme for the wingsuit stuff.

You're an advanced enough wingsuit pilot that you probably ought to consider buying a smaller WS Xtreme, and buying/begging/borrowing/stealing a smaller canopy for your wingsuit jumps. If that's not an option, get Morpheus to build you a WS Xtreme in the big size and go with that.

With a small mesh slider, you'll be fine with the Flik Vtec at wingsuit terminal, in my opinion.

It's not the measurements, it's the build of the canopy.

The FOX, in particular is very beefy, and can take tons of abuse, so it has a larger pack volume at a given size. The CR canopies tend to have smaller pack volumes. The differences on the current generation of canopies (Flik and Ace/BJ) are not nearly as pronounced as on the last generation (FOX/Mojo) since BR eased down on the reinforcements to reduce pack volume on the Flik, and CR beefed the Ace up a bit more than the Mojo.

You're all over it. 'Twas the plan.

Thanks for the tips. I'm think that by the time I get across the pond, I might have put enough together for the trip, a container, and a new canopy. I really like BR, and I really like the Flik Vtec. Maybe I should just get a second, slider-up/terminal rig this summer. I'd get some use out of it... just not much.

Last question then -- smaller canopy -- how small? Looks as though the WS Extreme is happy with a 200 or 220. I imagine I'd be taking something like that on many skydives in a huge, borrowed rig before being required to touch down between rocks.

 Maybe I should just get a second, slider-up/terminal rig this summer. I'd get some use out of it... just not much
.......................................................................................................

*Just a quick note*
Steve did a quick retrain and did a BASE jump the other night.
The first in Two & half years and his first Antenna.
Slider Down
And he is correct !!!
He will not get much use out of a slider up Rig.
He climbs as slow as my Grandmother.
and she is dead.
400 ft. in 45 Minutes
It's 900 ft. to the top.

sorry dude could not resist.

you said Steve you dont mean mac??

Ohh Steve welcome to the lazy club..(im one of them,even through i climb 400ft in 25mins he he..)

If you use a bigger Canopy, you may also look for the Vertex-2 from BR.

I use the Vertex-2 with Dynamic Corners with my FOX 285 and the BirdMan GTi (SF3 soon)

Works great for me, and I am pretty happy with this stuff.

Basic Research has the Vertex-2 not yet on their Website, but you should ask Karen about.

Cordially,

Herwig

Have you considered the Atmosphere and/or the Hacker from ParAAvis?

see: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=869146;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;guest=5215854

or: www.paraavis.com

Joris.

Not only was I slow, but I bitched and moaned about it the whole time. I'm so out of shape. I need better technique. I'd have it for like twenty rungs, and then I'd start thinking about those ducks by the pool. They swim in this puddle right next to the pool, and I'm like, "Dude! There's a POOL right there! Why did you go for the puddle?".

thanks for all the information.

my profile is out of date i have about 500 skydives but no base jumps yet. I weigh 165 lbs so was thinking of getting a 240. im going to do the 1st jump course in norway this summer so was after inforamation on a good canopy. i am going to get the gargoyle as a container so in the future i can jump my wingsuits. i really like the idea of the vents on the new generation of canopies but was worried about the openings on the terminal jumps in norway.

i will be moving to Aus in a few months and my understanding is most of the jumps there are low altitude? so i'd like to know which canopy would be good for both terminal and low jumps. I am considering the blackjack at the moment or the troll.

cheers

Darren

[reply<snipped>...and then I'd start thinking about those ducks by the pool. They swim in this puddle right next to the pool, and I'm like, "Dude! There's a POOL right there! Why did you go for the puddle?".
LOL

Reminds me of something someone said once, "They got BASE jumping in Hell!"

Makes y'wonder, doesn't it?
Gardner

Pretty much all our (Aus) E jumps are low < 300...

I'd avoid the troll for slider down jumps, you should read Tom's comments on the Troll; http://www.blincmagazine.com/...tes/troll/index.html

Get a small mesh (marquisette) slider, or even a sail slider with a hole cut in it. Playing with the slider and dumping high (by BASE standards) ought to work that out for you.


In general, that's probably true. Have you considered posting to the ABA forum?


I've made many jumps, both low and terminal, on both. If you're wanting snappy slider down openings at low altitude, and soft slider up openings at terminal, I'd go with the Blackjack. I think it opens slightly cleaner at low airspeed, and noticeably slower with a large mesh slider at terminal, than the Troll MDV.

Your results may vary.

Note that those comments are for the unvented Troll. In my opinion, the addition of the MDV's greatly improved the Troll's slider down openings. (I still prefer the BJ's openings at low altitude, though.)

As an experienced Australian jumper I would recommend a canopy that is best suited to classic accuracy style landings. The following characteristics would be highly desirable:
- Able to sink with little forward speed in nil wind conditions
- Forgiving flare
- Easy to fly
- Consistently land with little forward speed in nil wind conditions

In my opinion the canopy that performs best in this area is a FLiK with 4 upper control lines. The superior flight characteristics of the aerofoil with improved glide make it a better choice than a FOX. I have not jumped a Blackjack but I have seen them jumped and consider their forward speed excessive, unfortunately this applies to most BASE canopies with respect to jumping in Australia. There is also a question about Blackjack openings sub-terminal slider up. I would not recommend pioneering a Troll, but if you do there would be a number of people who would be interested to hear how you go. Any BASE specific canopy will work, it's just a question of which is going to fulfill your requirements best.

At your weight, I would recommend a canopy in the 260 sq/ft range. The .7 wing loading formula is outdated and a larger canopy I believe would be beneficial in your circumstances.

I would suggest a Prism 2 or Vertex 2 as it will simplify your ordering process and may save you some $ allowing you to spend more on safety gear (a solid pair of padded knee pads is highly recommended). Ignoring the looks, I have always found the Prism to be the most functional container and is my personal favorite. If you don’t have anyone to help with packing you may want to consider a Velcro container for easier closing and more consistent heading performance, though Velcro is not suitable for wingsuit jumps. I believe containers are a very personal choice as they all work.

I don't believe the sites we jump in Australia are any harder that those jumped in other countries. We just jump hard sites on a regular basis due to a lack of objects at the easier end of the spectrum. The height of the objects is not the big issue; however the nature of the landing areas we regularly use is. Not to many of the landing areas are flat or have grass.
I have personally used a FLiK/Prism for everything from 110 feet to terminal and wingsuit.

Jason Fitz-Herbert

Can you elaborate on this?

I'm generally of the opinion that forward speed can always be eliminated by flying in deeper brakes. For this reason, I've always seen more available forward speed as always positive, since it just means a wider performance range that I can choose not to use. So long as the canopy flies well slow (i.e. in deep brakes) I haven't seen a situation where I thought having forward speed available if I chose to use it was a bad thing.

Back to the original question: If Aussie jumping conditions favor less available forward speed, consider the BR canopy. Both the Ace/BJ and Troll have very good (by which I mean high) available forward speed. I haven't clocked a Flik, but the Ace and BJ that I clocked had full drive speeds about 8-10 mph faster than my FOX, while the Troll was about 5-7 mph faster. Interestingly, the slowest canopy in full drive was consistently my Mojo. So if that's the consideration, maybe you ought to look around for a used Mojo.

Still, my original comment is, I think, the most salient. As a beginner, you are going to need guidance from the experienced jumpers in your area. In Australia, you'll be able to get more help with BR gear, because so many of the Aussies are using BR gear almost exclusively.

In reply to: "I've always seen more available forward speed as alwayspositive".

You definitely have a valid point, a faster canopy has a wider range of possible speeds. It also enables better penetration into strong winds and has potential to generate more lift during flare. If two canopies were identical in every aspect of their performance only one had more available forward speed - then I would choose it. However, in reality if
two canopies have different forward speeds then they will also behave differently in other ways. There are many different factors that need to be considered when selecting a canopy such as - nature of landing areas primarily being used, types of approaches needed for landing areas, available height/time to set up for landing, type of jumps being performed, jumper's background and personal preference etc and how the canopy performs in these areas.

I do not believe it is possible to fly and land a Black Jack at the same speed as a FOX and if it were I believe it would take a lot of practice. Flying in brakes is necessary sometimes but it means you are deforming the wing and hence the more brake you have to use the less efficient your wing is going to be. I do not believe all canopies should have as little forward speed as a FOX, there needs to be a balance.

I have owned a Mojo but no longer jump one, not because of its forward speed but because it does not sink as well as a FOX with Vtec and it is sensitive to surging or stalling on opening. To date 6 jumpers in Oz believe the 5th upper control line on a FLiK/FOX make the canopy to difficult to fly safely.

In my opinion a faster canopy has the potential to result in the following disadvantages:
* Harder to sink at steep angles for extended lengths of time (as required
when sinking into a small landing area surrounded by 20ft trees)
* Landings with little forward momentum tend to be harder to achieve
* Landings with forward momentum require several steps to be taken when
touching down (more suited to landing areas without large rocks & not on steep slopes)
* Object strikes when landing have the potential to be harder
* Has potential to generate more speed in turns
* Potential to surge more erratically when transitioning from a deep sink to drive
* More difficult to establish ideal brake settings for various openings (slider down, sub-terminal slider up etc.) due to increased sensitivity
* Less time to make decisions while under canopy

In Oz the landing areas are primarily steep slopes or covered in large rocks and sometimes both. When your feet touch the ground you want as little
forward speed as possible. The landings I have seen in nil wind with the Ace/BJ indicated that the canopy planes out in the flare. I have not been in a position to measure the speed but when you hear the suspension lines whistle through the air, the thought of jumping one is Oz scares me.

There is an experienced Oz jumper who even believes a FLiK is too fast for our conditions. While I understand where he is coming from you have to
balance the overall performance of both canopies.

I am about to purchase a larger FLiK but I would be willing to change the order to Blackjack. I have considered purchasing a Black Jack in the past,
without the ZP composite, but decided to purchase a canopy that was more likely to fill my requirements. I would love to be able to jump other manufacture's gear and see if it possibly out performs the gear currently being used but I don't have to funds available to do this. I'm not interested in getting into a debate about which canopy would be best or
which gear manufacturer is better etc, all canopies work it's just important to know if it suits your needs and understand the flight characteristics of each.

Like I have stated in the past it would be good to see a wider range of gear used in Oz, but on the up side of one gear dominating the market the information exchange is great. Jumpers do own Black Jacks in Oz and maybe one of them will post how they feel. I suspect they would rather have a
slower canopy regardless of manufacturer.

This discussion is very subjective and who knows what the next generation of canopies will bring. Generally speaking, the current generation of new gear seems to lean towards being higher performance. As a whole I am not opposed
to this, there just needs to be a balance and care needs to taken that we don't go too far in performance. You don't have to BASE jump a 9 cell
skydiving canopy to know it may not be a good idea.

Tom as someone who has a lot of jumps on a Black Jack do you believe a Black Jack is likely to out perform a FLiK in Oz? I have come close to buying a Black Jack in the past and may consider owning one if you believe it would be a wise investment.

Why?

Note that this is a genuine "why?"... not a sarcastic or defensive "why?". I'm considering purchasing a FLiK and would like to know what negative aspect the fifth control line has. I've only jumped the FLiK once in really nice conditions, so I really haven't been subject to it much (all other jumps were on a Fox a couple years ago).

Have a look at Jason's posting on the ABA forum. He goes into depth there.

I'll try to chip into this discussion some more later this weekend.

Aaahhh. From BR's site... "The control range has changed, (with a the additional control lines) it has condensed the toggle stroke, making it feel a little sportier".

I'm glad someone pointed that out. Even on my skydiving canopy I don't like a short toggle stroke... I prefer the range I get when (and am use to) flaring at my arm's full extension. This would be advantagious to those who usually jump skydiving mains with shorter brake lines. I think I'll forego the fifth line on whatever I get. Either that, or let it out several inches.

ive got 5th line mod,i didnt got a sporty canopy,but i got a canopy that flares my vetc canopy(no valves)better,i also think ive got better flying than before...

if the issue should be that you want to extend your arms fully as you flare out,then you perhaps need longer brake lines... you should be abel to fly your canopy in all ways(fast forward,sink it in,flat turns and so on).no matter whith or whith out 5th line mod,if you cant,your settings are wrong that simple...

Ive got my 5th line mod after long mails to DW,evrything he said about it works for me,he did cover some of it at the ABA forum..