Basejumper.com - archive

I think "burning" a site (in it's various degrees) means making it less likely that other jumpers will be able to jump the same site.

So, for example, some of our progenitors "burned" a big stone out in California, even though it was legal to jump it at the time.

Doesn't matter if it's legal. If you got that big wall in Southern Norway shut down, I'd say you "burned" it, even if you didn't get caught jumping it. If you got chased out of that valley in California, I'd say you did some "burning" even if you didn't get caught.

Burning a site means making it harder for others to enjoy it.

And, now, I wave the magic moderation wand, and, "presto!" we have a new thread...

I understand why sites need to remain unnamed, so that not everyone knows where and when and who, thus protecting it for future jumps. But why places like the wall in Norway and the bridge in WV which are commonly accepted as BASE locations by even just observers. Is it just to stay in the habit? Just because its a rule without exceptions?

and on burning... Could you then burn a site by naming it here?

according to the nazi's "YES"...

The wall in Norway, which has instruction available all season, is one of my specific exceptions. I won't edit that name out. I won't name it myself, as I don't see the benefit of doing so, but the site is organized enough that the damage is limited.

The Bridge? There's a whole other 364 days every year that most skydivers don't think about...

I choose to not underestimate "the man," or the stupidity of people like:

#10 Jeb Williams, 1986
Antenna Jump
Dallas, Texas, USA
Total Malfunction and Impact
Jeb jumped from a free standing 500-foot antenna tower with skydiving gear and no reported BASE training or expereince. He impacted with nothing out. This jump cemented the cause for dedicated BASE jumping equipment in the BASE community. Talk of a person having a set amount of skydives before BASE jumping is still seven or eight years away. (courtesy of "the list")

The less authorities know about an object, the better chance we have of not getting caught, bottom line. The less info that is posted on this (or any) BASE-related site, the less chance of someone who doesn't know what the fuck they're doing going in and fucking it up for everyone else that way.

I wish it weren't that way...

Also...


However, I think that:


May be a little harsh.

It's my view that the loss of human life in these cases is far more tragic than the potential loss of an object. As I've said before, I believe that the primary goal of object security is not to protect the objects, it is to protect the over-eager, uninstructed, potential BASE jumper.

Perhaps it's that I'm a bleeding heart liberal, and you're a staunch, heartless, conservative.

Tom, if you edit this again, I'm gone from here . . .

I stayed out of the moderator fray because I think sites like this should be peer regulated. In that vein, and although I understand your intent, I chose to post where I did (within another thread) for a reason. If I wanted to start a new thread on site burning I would have. I don’t want my posts manipulated in that fashion. I now have to defend an off the cuff remark, and if that’s going to be the way of it here, I’m gone.

I don’t want to go into the whole thing right now, but I think we are guilty of taking ourselves and what we are doing too seriously. Very few sites, if any, get burned to the point where they are never jumped again. Time passes, people forget. I really believe we are too paranoid in general, and a more in your face approach to BASE jumping would benefit the sport in the long run. We, all of us, are rebels in the first place, and the best thing to say when cornered is, “Yes, I jumped off that, and if that bothers you, you can go F yourself . . . !”

Site protection is not reason enough to eat our young.

Nick D
BASE 194

Bringing in posts from removed portions of this thread:

ZegeunerLeben wrote:



I responded:

In general, I agree with Nick. But;


I'm not sure about this bit. Once laws have been passed banning BASE at specific sites, they have never been repealed.

With that in mind, I think that "burning" (i.e. behaving in such a manner that local authorities ban jumping) a legal site is the worst offense in the range of "burnings."

Whoa. Nick? I sent you three PM's about that. I'll gladly put it however you want it to stand. You just got to tell me what you want here.

I made the last edit after your original message, which I (apparently mis-) interpreted as meaning that you wanted your comments removed from the thread.

Could we move this to PM's? I have no wish, or intention, to offend you or have your words be read/taken out of context by anyone here.

Thanks.

Nick,
I totally understand how you feel. I have also been taken out of context by moderators(Tom and Hooknswoop) splitting the thread and starting a new thread with a post I made as a reply. This kind of post manipulation can indeed take the user out of context in an uncool way. It is unfair to the poster.

When someone reads a reply within the thread it was posted, it is in context and that person can better understand where the poster is coming from. When taken out of its original thread, the post is then out of context and can be misconstrued. If you notice, I dont post here as much as I used too. I simply got tired of my communications being messed with. It sucks because I would like to feel free to post my thoughts to my fellow BASE jumpers more often without my post being manipulated.

Tom,
See what I mean? We have talked about this very thing a few times (in the past and lately). Splitting someones post from a thread can indeed take them out of context. Tom please dont think Im just trying to get on your case, Im not, and I do like you as a person. This is a real issue with people. It is my opinion that you should only split a post from a thread if you have consent from the author to do so. Of course you can wave your magic moderation wand and manipulate post in this fashion if you want, but as you can see, posters get mad.

Im just being straight forward with you dude and I hope you dont hold some kind of grudge against me for voicing my opinions.

Yup. I think Johnny is right.

From something he wrote elsewhere:


I shall henceforth adopt this as my unofficial policy on this forum. Feel free to call me on it if I screw it up.

From here on out, I'll PM people before splitting their posts out of threads.

If I think it's an important topic, I will, of course, feel free to start my own discussion about it.

Tom, I honestly think you and others take the naming sites thing far too anally at times. Many sites (eg KL, bridgeday) are public knowledge and reported in the media. A search on Google will pull them up in a couple of seconds.

However, there have been some nasty consequences from sites being named/ photo'd/ filmed/ listed online. So yes, there is some sense to keeping unpublicised sites unnamed.
***Begin “mother”/bitch rant****
To put it bluntly, the way everyone has been behaving/posting in these threads (moderators and posters alike) is not good.

I frequently hear BASE jumpers proclaim how they got away from skydiving to get away from the politics and the bitching. Yet here we all are, repeatedly bitching/whining like a couple of teenagers who haven’t got a date for the prom.

Can we learn to give each other the benefit of the doubt?
***End of “mother”/bitch rant****

Edited to give benefit of doubt

well i will agree whith that,but...

Aint people moveing down wards again??? I mean,not to the size of a skydive pc..But as an example my biggest pc is a 46´zp pc whith loadtaps,i use it freefaling 180ft,only time i had a poroblem were as i used a vented 46´av zp pc which had a small hessi.,it gave me a short canopy ride but i were ok(for that reasson i dont use vented pc´s under 200ft anymore)...
Last time i were in UK a(unnamed)guy used my 42áv zp pc to freefall 230ft on a unvented canopyserval times,whith no problem..
I know serval people dont owe a bigger pc than a 46 aswell and jump the way i and some others does..

I do agree what Space says,that Jeb did show somthing,that using the right pc for the right job is demanded,sadly he had to did doing this..

Tom,feel free to split this it you want(now you dont havre to pm me

He does. He also makes exceptions if you are one of his buddies. If you belong to that group you get away with site naming, sarcasm, personal attacks, and so on.

Naming legal sites like the wall in Norway, Italy, the one-day-deal bridge and others should be allowed.

Nick,

I know we've covered this in PM's, but since you want to discuss it here...


As I have stated (see the "Before You Post" link) I will leave in the name of sites where instruction is commonly available. This includes the terminal wall in Southern Norway.

As I discussed earlier in this thread, I believe that the problems with naming the bridge day site do not revolve around Bridge Day itself, but rather around the other 364 days of every year, when the object sits there without supervision (unless you count the NPS).

Given that the locals at the terminal wall in Italy have requested:


I will continue to edit out the names of these sites.

You may feel that as an American, you are the ruler of the world and can establish rules for the little people in other countries to follow. I think this kind of attitude is one reason that Americans are so detested by people in many other countries.

If, after they have made a polite request, you wish to tell the locals to go screw themselves, you are welcome to do so in places other than this forum.

Please PM me with details of any case in which you have seen this. I'll be happy to go back and have a look at anything I may have missed.

It's not just Tom... I've noticed if the person that names a well known site is a BASE jumper, it is accepted. But if the person is not a BASE jumper, they get shit for it. I don't know if it's just to make sure the non-BASE jumper knows the rules or if it's a double standard.

Example:
Thread I posted in...

A search for this site name in this forum...

In any case, it doesn't hurt to just leave names out regardless.

I have been trying to make this same point for years, and until your posting now, I don't think I ever said it right! I think this is right on the point!

it is not just the authorities, it is the unskilled, un-intelligent person. No I didn't say jumper, as not all 1st time BASE jumps are dont by jumpers of any kind.
I have seen high school students jumping off bridges before. SCARY!

Absolutely

I don't think we should be eating our young, but when I started jumping, I was FORCED to go with an experienced jumper. I actually then hooked up with several top notch jumpers, and was TAUGHT what I needed to know, instead of just winging it!

This is what I mean when I talk about the site naming. Why allow an eager jumper kill him/herself instead of forcing them into earning it by doing to work to actually LEARN what really is needed instead of hoping darwing takes over?

In response to ZegeunerLeben.....

I think YES, you burned That site. The degree of burning might not be fully know, but there will be charing...
But...............
That is only the start!
If a "BASE-Jumper" is acting in a burning manner, then waffos will steriotype ALL BASE-Jumpers.
So, if there are several other objects in the same area/region that have gone unburned for years maybe, with this one act, people start opening up there eyes as they are pissed off that some punk is acting in a way that is telling them to "kiss my ###". This is what people are going to think. Then, that super sweet object that you have tried to protect so well, is now also under scrutiny by everyone.

I was taught that 95% of all base jumps are never known by anyone.

Just my 2cents...

The NPS still remembers names of people they busted in the 80's. They do not forget!

I don't think I would agree at all with your "buddies" statement.

He allows certain things to be posted at times. The wall in Norway, the Cave in Mexico, the cliff in Italy, the Building in Malaysia etc....
I don't think it has anything to do with buddies.

I think that the better meaning was....
You posted a site name on a forum, acting like a complete know-nothing wuffo, asking about a bridge that you could jump off of.
This is the same bridge I have seen high school students parachuting from. This is not the type of behaviour that we need to keep the bridge opened.

You searches are correct. Is has been posted before.
But, the internet is also the poorest place to display and judge attitude, and actualy expressions. Neticate is scattered, and not well known.
Moderators have the world toughest job, because we know about neticate, but also know most people don't. Then have cultural differences to deal with, just to keep control over a group that could always explode at any moment like a NUKE!
Not easy.

I think Tom does an amazing job.

I'm not saying he doesn't.

That particular topic was just confusing to me at first because I would see it accepted in some threads and not in others (ie, Mindygirl's post in the thread I linked above).

edited to add:

How is my wanting to take the Morpheus FJC at this bridge "not the type of behaviour that we need to keep the bridge opened?" (Unless that was directed at the original poster of that thread... please clarify)

Otherwise, I guess I still don't get it.

My impression from just the first post in the thread was that you did not elude to any FJC.
Did I miss that part of the posting?

my post word for word:

I think you were talking about the post above mine... although I was the one questioning the naming of that particular site, I never actually named anything.

Anyway, I thought it was and still is a gray area... especially for newer people to this forum.

Remember that the site you are discussing is one of my specifically stated exceptions. So I won't edit it out of discussion. Peer pressure not to name? Well, that's up to the peers, I suppose.

> Naming legal sites like the wall in Norway, Italy, the one-day-deal bridge and others should be allowed.
No. It must NOT be allowed, Nick. Who say it "should" be allowed? You live in US, fine. You can come to jump Italy, Norway, wherever. You and your foreign buddies, very well welcomed indeed, come once a year, maybe twice if you are lucky, and stay here from 5 to 10 days a year. You do terrific jumps. You have terrific time.
Fine.
Have you ever thought that for the remaining 350 days of the year we (the locals) are left "alone"?
Have you have ever thought that talking about legal sites ("Oh, yes, they are legal, we can freely talk about legal sites...") leads to ALL THE WORLD to read how terrific is jumping Italian terminal wall? That Italian terminal wall is legal? That Italian terminal wall takes no harrasment from Police? That Italian terminal wall is "suitable" for first timers?
Now, because it legal and it is OK to talk publicily about legal sites, EVERYBODY can read this information.
Also skydivers that think that BASE jump is cool read this information, that Italian terminal wall is cool to be jumped, and so on. Come on, let's buy BASE rigs. Come on, let's try to pack it. Come on, let's go and do a fantastic trip to Italy (instead of Italy, write down any other European/foreign country as you like) to jump that terminal wall.
It's a pity this is NOT the way to learn how to BASE jump. It's a pity behaving this way there is a higher chance of fatalities happening. It's a pity fatalities did happen.
I am afraid you, as any other supporter of "If it's legal, let's talk freely about it" school of thought weren't there to help him packing, to help him to exit in dead air, to help him teaching escape procedures, whatever else, to talk to authorities and to friends/relatives of poor chap.
So, if any US/wherever citizen would like SO MUCH to talk about legal sites so bad that they cannot refrain from talking publicily about BASE sites, please, feel free to talk on the Internet about YOUR OWN legal sites in your OWN country. Please, leave Italian legal objects OUT of your posts/threads/public discussions. Thanks.
I think I have been clear about the reasons behind the "let's NOT talk publicily about ANY BASE site in the world" school of thought. It's not paranoia. It's just good old common sense and it's about tears dropped. Real things happened, not theory.
If you want so bad informations about foreign BASE sites, with few e-mail's (perhaps just one is enough), you have all the information you like. In fact, you did it.
I think it's not fair that "foreigners" come to our BASE sites, have fun jumping/have fun jumping with us for 10 days a year and they talk publicily about their experience in a legal BASE site for the remaining 350 days of the year, and WE, the "locals", are left to face with the consequences of such "big mouth" talking and face the many BASE wannabies "I learn to BASE jump in 15 minutes" attitude.
BASE sites information must be "difficult" to get for first timers. For "in activity" BASE jumpers, through Internet/BASE Board/Dropzone/whatever, is quite easy to get useful information, this happens through personal contacts.
So, my personal opinion is that THERE IS NO NEED TO TALK PUBLICILY OF LEGAL BASE SITES ON INTERNET.
I am open to receive comments/flaming/whatever.
In the meantime, peace to all.

Point well taken bro. I still want ot check those out this summer with you and I'll keep my mounth shut

What I don't like is the double standard of this forum. Tom does make exceptions of almost any kind if he knows you personally. He DOES overall do a good job but IMO he should be a bit more fare and play the devil's advocate all the time.

I too am sick hearing that "since it is legal, we can do whatever we want" attitude. Those walls are really really near to get closed. Forever!

In most of Europe, the attitude against the law is different. There is an applied law and a non applied law. And further, the law doesn't always reflect reality.

A short explanation: The "since it is legal" should be translated in "since we are accepted" or better "since we are welcome".

There was some time ago a site published on the internet where:

1. It is a very hairy jump and had multiple fatalities
2. Wind conditions aren't easy at all
3. Doesn't allow much orientation

and for the point of this thread:
4. Is very close to tourists/civil people/workers and this people weren't quite happy to actually see jumpers going in (understandable). If they could, they would close the site (the border between could and actually do is very close) Forever!


Another point of BASE689 is their wall on the internet "seems" easy. When you would take the time, ask the locals, they could explain you in detail on what to look and when it is dangerous to jump.



To finish, I think for "our" spots:
1. ALL jump places should go from mouth to ear. There is never that much information about a site in written format. This will reduce risks on a most effective way, not anything written somewhere at some time by someone anonymous can replace that.

2. Take time to elaborate a spot. Take your time walking and maybe waiting for a local you contacted to show you the place, it is worth... Jump numbers are just numbers...

Please accept this. If you're welcome, a local may show you some other secrets in their area...

Oh for f**k's sake!
Grow up!!
Haven't you all got better things to do than sit at your 'puter and bitch incessantly about who is/isn't part of Tom's cool group?

Can't you have an objective discussion about a topic that is worth hearing a multitude of opinions on? Regardless of whether or not you agree with them!

Apparently not!!?? Instead its personal attacks galore, back-stabbing left-right-and-centre and a whole lot of good-for-nothing sledging.
How pathetic are all of you??!!!

Posters, grow up!
Moderators, do your jobs!

The forums are meant to be for discussion, not for insulting one another's intelligence or lack thereof!!

Edited to remove benefit of doubt and to sound more like scolding "mother"

You don't have to read it.

You don't have to post.

Some times during a rock fight a stray stone knocks fruit from the tree and everyone around gets the benefit.

Maybe a useful thread will develop. Maybe steam gets blown off. Maybe someone has some fun in the process (please don't remove the post due to this contentious idea).

Maybe none of this has any real value since we're hardly the UN trying to figure our world peace.

Don't take it too seriously.

Love n hugs.

Jasmin,
Bless your cotton socks. 'Grow up' sounds quite endearing when voiced by a 20year old. As Skinflicka remarked, it is not compulsory to read anybody's posts, nor is there a requirement to play the role of 'protector' and control everyone's level of interaction. I'm finding this thread really informative - not to mention entertaining - even though I am a highly experienced BASE jumper myself, (having done one jump off an un-named bridge).
I'm sure you have a lot of good things to contribute to any topic, as we all do. My concern is the level of hypocrisy I see in your communication.
My mother is a grown-up and does not use this kind of language. Also, men never grow up. (This is not a criticism, just an observation.)
Speakin' of bitchin'....

Backstabbing is only back-stabbing when it is not voiced publicly. Personally I think a bit of sledging is quite good fun and not necessarily good-for-nothing.
Labelling people as pathetic, and then berating them for insulting others is a somewhat questionable technique.
To pinch, Skinflicka's line again, don't take it too seriously.

Personally I think you're all stark-raving mad (BASE jumpers that is), but I have the utmost respect for you as well and I look forward to reading some more juicy stuff.

Laraine......

Yo... can you give me a AHHHHH..Men
Brutha, or (sister) on that last post.

This is only Airing-out everyones thoughts
about the topic.
I am learning a crap load of info.

Agreed. This is probably the best thread I've read to truly explain the reasoning behind keeping all BASE sites a secret. I was one of the people who never really understood the thinking behind censoring the names of the well-known locations, but base689's post (among others) was an excellent explanation.

Guess you missed my last couple of birthdays sweetheart. And yes, girls grow up a little quicker than boys

Yeah, it was a bit of rant. Apology for the extent, there's some good stuff in this thread I agree, but I ain't never seen no bitchin' like I have in this forum over the last couple of months. So I still stand by the sledging and the back-stabbing comments. (In between the Malaysia threads, the PM's about it and the posts deleted, its coming from posters and moderators alike).

It doesn't help those learning, it doesn't add to anyone's knowledge, and the post deletion without consulting pisses a lot of people off (J.Utah).

The point I'm trying to make is, afford each other a little respect and we'll all be a lot better off (and yes that one should be hit at me too).

What you've seen here ain't shit compared to what BASE jumpers are capable of... just browse the archives over on Blinc for starters. This is lightweight stuff. Bitchin' and arguing and backstabbing and shit-talkin' is the stuff of BASE.

Ever tried to herd a pack of cats? Good f'n luck.

Gardner

Jasmin, pipe down. You're starting to burn bridges. (excuse the pun!)